Maybe this is a bad take from someone with no military knowledge, but I never understand how “we need bodies for the meat grinder” so let’s do conscription is often only mandatory for men?
You’re either going to shove a gun in their hand and point them in the direction to shoot, have them run some equipment/weapon, or have them in a support role. Both men and women can do those things equally well.
Any very generalized physical differences between men and women would have minimal difference in the ability to carry out their tasks.
One claim always has been, that “typical woman” is gonna have a hard time to carry wounded “typical man” to safety. But that’s bullshit anyway, because a small guy is gonna have a hard time carrying big guy just as well, and that doesn’t save them from conscription.
Another take I heard during duty was “you serve 9 months, a woman gives her body during pregnacy for 9 months for the fatherland” 😅. Like, ok, didn’t know forced pregnancy was a common occurrence ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
So you heard some stuff, any actual reasons too?
No, no actual reasons. That’s just the stuff I’ve been officially told, while asking, during duty ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. I believe, because nobody has a convincing reason, it’s “always has been” all the way down.
really fucking weird comments down here. people supporting forced military service. tf
It’s a demographic problem where the young feel fucked over by the old. The old are the electorate and the young always get the shit end of the stick.
They won’t afford anything ever, please pay boomers pension oh and please die for your country.
Honestly, nowadays I think that conscription should be seen more like an education on how to defend yourself within the organized structures of the state, and maybe should also be implemented more in those lines. And such is necessary nowadays. I didn’t have to go and since I had my plans made I also didn’t but I have been considering to maybe look whether I can still at least learn a lite version of it. How many conscripted were forced to fight in the last decades? The first to go, and the only ones since probably the second world war (in germany), is the professional army, no conscripted is forced. Of course once we are in a true conflict to the point that the professional army isn’t sufficient anymore this starts to change, but then it would change for you regardless of whether you have trained the basics or not, and then I would prefer knowing what I do and how to do it, whether I have to or want to defend the society, friends, family etc. in an organized structure or not.
If anything, the Bundeswehr should simply copy the Finnish Reserve model. One better be prepared for the fucking Muscovites as a possible deterrence, because they are far from finished. As long as Vlad receives public support, he can continue to send troops into the meat grinder and that is how the Russians wear you down. They do not give a rat’s ass about losses. Nobody with a sane mind would want to be occupied by the Russians.
What aspect of that model do you mean?
German conscription was (technically still is but the draft is paused) mostly about training reserves.
I think people live in a fairy tale.
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Naiive, misguided youngsters…?
Forced conscription isn’t the best way to fill the ranks and fight a war. But ironically this mandatory service actually lowers the odds of people being forcefully conscripted during an actual crisis.
Military service incentivizes people to join the military afterwards. Having a large swat of the populace receive basic military training, also helps fill the ranks faster and better in the outbreak of a war.
Both of which are the whole point imo. Those extra recruits are something Germany could really, really use badly and without a ready military there can’t be any convincing deterrence.
How about instead of forcing people into military service against their will, stop fucking over young and working class people so maybe they feel like there is actually something worth fighting for.
There’s no amount of money you can pay someone to give their life if the living conditions are good. The only option is either make it ideological to serve (eg: nationalism) or choose from poverty/unemployed class.
Fucking over the young and working class helps in both. You get a strata of society you can manipulate on ideological and financial grounds
There’s no amount of money you can pay someone to give their life if the living conditions are good.
Perhaps not to give their life, but to risk it there is, which is more accurate. It’s not like joining the military has a 100% fatality rate.
You do realize that mandatory service is not the same as actually joining the military? Besides, the military doesn’t want to recruit people who will actively resist their service and stir trouble.
Conscious objecters used to be either released from service or offered some sort of alternative to completing their service. So if you really don’t want to go, you’ll likely be able to dodge it.
My point is that if you create the incentives for people to voluntarily choose a career in the military, then you don’t have to force people to serve against their will. And that includes making a society that people think is worth protecting, instead of one that just protects capital interests of the rich, while fucking over poor people, most of all the same young people that are being pushed into service. But it’s easier to just force them, I guess.
My bad! I misread your comment 🫢
Doesn’t work when veterans have consistently and publicly been treated like shit, the army needs at least be a better option afterwards and if it’s not then not even the desperate will willingly join.
If you’re talking about USA veterans, then it should be surprising that most soldiers and veterans lean Republican despite Republican politicians advocating for shittier treatment
Policy to ideological leaning is not a straight line
Right, so we should just sit back and let Eastern Europe get overrun by Russia? I’m sure it’ll work out great for youth unemployment and affordable housing. Freedom and democracy are actually worth fighting for.
I’m less worried about Europe’s ability to defend itself against Russia than I am about building a strong military for the fascists of the AfD if they manage to take power in Germany.
Besides, in my opinion forcing unwilling people in to military service is immoral, regardless of circumstances.
This is also a very legitimate concern.
That was true 70 years ago, but today Germany is a country with an aging population, outdated industry and infrastructure, few remaining natural resources, strong cultural and historic ties with Russia and a populace that leans heavily into pacifism. Military adventurism just isn’t in the cards, regardless who wins the elections.
I’ll even argue that to remain passive in the face of injustice isn’t at all moral or ethical. We are already at war. The enemy just hasn’t reached the German border yet.
While Germans drag their feet, discussing matters of military support, re-armament and deterrence, more and more Ukrainians are left dead from Russian missiles and drones. Germany’s ethics are paid for in blood by Ukrainian men, woman and children.
It’s a country where 30% of the population votes for fascists. In some parts it’s more like 50%. I hope you’re right, but I don’t want to see a potential AfD led government with a strong military.
I agree that pacifism in the face of Russian aggression is a mistake, but recruiting a bunch of kids who don’t want to serve is not going to do anything to help Ukraine.
maybe history showed that militarization is a major contributing factor for the authorian formation of societies.
Nobody from Europe is sending troops into Ukraine. Nothing will happen until Russia actually attacks a NATO member, but then it’s a genuine question if any NATO country will actually uphold its promise.
Comsidering how many countries are really really scared of Russian nukes, I think it’s more likely that should a NATO country get attacked, every other NATO country will just pussyfoot around, even if they have a large military.
Russia actually invading a NATO state is not a likely scenario, but minor incursions are. Not responding to those will fracture NATO and invite even more Russian aggression, with the ultimate goal of wrestling territory from the Baltics.
But here’s the catch: its not just the Baltics that are at risk. The Baltic states are also EU member states. If Russia manages to succesfully confront and annex EU member states, then it will massively impact things like the value of the Euro, the credibility and stability of EU institutions, freedom of travel et cetera.
Even right-wing governments will be forced respond. So we’ll still end up fighting a war with Russia, only from a considerably worse poisition then if we continue re-arming Europe and supporting Ukraine.
Let’s not forget the profits!
