To this day, she remembers the racing thoughts, the instant nausea, the hairs prickling up on her legs, the sweaty palms. She had shared a photograph of herself in her underwear with a boy she trusted and, very soon, it had been sent around the school and across her small home town, Aberystwyth, Wales. She became a local celebrity for all the wrong reasons. Younger kids would approach her laughing and ask for a hug. Members of the men’s football team saw it – and one showed someone who knew Davies’s nan, so that’s how her family found out.
Her book, No One Wants to See Your D*ck, takes a deep dive into the negatives. It covers Davies’s experiences in the digital world – that includes cyberflashing such as all those unsolicited dick pics – as well as the widespread use of her images on pornography sites, escort services, dating apps, sex chats (“Ready for Rape? Role play now!” with her picture alongside it). However, the book also shines a light on the dark online men’s spaces, what they’re saying, the “games” they’re playing. “I wanted to show the reality of what men are doing,” says Davies. “People will say: ‘It’s not all men’ and no, it isn’t, but it also isn’t a small number of weirdos on the dark web in their mum’s basements. These are forums with millions of members on mainstream sites such as Reddit, Discord and 4chan. These are men writing about their wives, their mums, their mate’s daughter, exchanging images, sharing women’s names, socials and contact details, and no one – not one man – is calling them out. They’re patting each other on the back.”
I think part of why she didn’t seen men fighting some of the shitty stuff online is due to the echochamber effect of those communities. Any resistance is downvoted, dogpiled with hateful comments, and maybe even removed by a biased mod. A lot of the good men who would defend in those comments don’t even browse those specific forums because of how toxic and shitty they can be.
Also why would I ever recognize a space like that and not run away. “Calling out” is still participation, and why would I want to participate (incl. from the legal perspective). I have the moral obligation to do that because…I am man? As if being a man was being part of a club.
I believe we (as in, people) all have a responsibility to hold each other accountable. But we can also only do so much, and inserting yourself into a toxic community founded for the sole goal of normalizing that toxicity in some misguided attempt to reform such people is beyond what any one person can be expected to engage with.
I believe we (as in, people) all have a responsibility to hold each other accountable. But we can also only do so much, and inserting yourself into a toxic community …
Me too, both. That we have responsibility for others and that we are not obliged to put ourselves at harms risk.
But this is a particularly shitty, maybe wicked problem. There are three groups: A bullies B, and C could stop A, but isn’t bothered by anyone. Now, is C obliged to pick a fight with A, or is B just in bad luck to be born as a B?
I think here, it is very easy to have strong opinions, while very hard to formulate a concise moral argument. Things get muddier/harder the more we factor reality in.
Precisely. It’s completely different from doing that in your group of friends, where confrontation is a way to establish common values, and in an internet cesspool where anyway I am going to be moderated out.
Just yesterday I was reading a great article about how social medias compare to TV when it comes to feeling part of a group. “Calling out” people in such places wouldn’t be anything else that virtue signaling (to yourself) to reaffirm your own identity (I stand up to sexism), and at the same time allow those people to reaffirm themselves (I get confronted because I am speaking truth).
Basically it would be at most a performance.
Right. As a guy, I’ve never received a nude pic of a girl from a friend. I’ve never had a friend tell me that he sends girls dick pics. I’ve never been in an online community where photos of women are traded like what is described above - I wouldn’t even know where to start looking for this. I’ve never heard about anyone I know having their pictures shared, or anyone I know sharing pictures of someone else in an unethical way. This is quite simply a social sphere that I am completely excluded from. The idea that I have any responsibility or capacity to police this kind of behavior is ludicrous - what am I supposed to do? Talk to my friends and say “So, look at any unethical porn lately, bro?” Or spend my time seeking out toxic communities so I can debate them/report them, instead of going outside and having a life?
“I’ve never had a friend tell me he sends girls dick pics” Well he wouldn’t, would he? They know it’s toxic behavior even though they enjoy doing it and might even brag about it with equally toxic guys. This is a problem women constantly have, the men in their lives don’t believe things are happening because it doesn’t happen when they’re there. It’s a far less niche sphere than it appears to you, and I agree it’s probably not going to be out in front of you for you to do something about. But you can start by assuming women mostly don’t bring things up unless they’re really bad, because they put themselves at risk by doing so. So if they do, they’re probably not lying or imagining it. Even if your experience of that guy is completely different. And you can (continue to) shut down the more “minor” conversational shit that normalizes and perpetuates that mindset.
But you can start by assuming women mostly don’t bring things up unless they’re really bad, because they put themselves at risk by doing so.
Ideally I wouldn’t assume anything based on such broad generalities. I would base my understanding on my understanding of the person making the claim. If the woman making the claim has shown tendencies in the past of lying and starting drama, I will likely do nothing, and will sort of quietly wander away to find another conversation because I don’t want to be involved in whatever shit she is starting now. Though I will also probably never be present for this conversation, since I probably would have removed this person from my life a long time ago and would actively avoid interacting with them, because it is an unpleasant experience. If I know the woman to generally be trustworthy and straightforward, I will say “wow, that sucks, let me know if I can do anything to help you feel better”.
I’ve known several women who confessed to me that they’d been sexually assaulted in the past. My response, more or less, was “wow, I’m sorry that happened to you. Let me know if you want to talk about it more, or if there is anything I can do to help.” And that is the extent of what I can do, since I have no idea who the people who assaulted them are. It’s not like I can just bust down some random guy’s door and beat him up.
And you can (continue to) shut down the more “minor” conversational shit that normalizes and perpetuates that mindset.
Such as…? I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. I assume you are talking about the conversations where guys say things like “no means yes, yes means anal” - which, again, I have never, ever been involved in. Like, ever. I don’t know who these people are or where they hang out. I infer they exist based on second hand accounts if others. But they seem to not like me, and don’t invite me to their parties.
When my male friends and I talk about women, our conversations usually go: ugh, why don’t girls like me?; ugh, my girlfriend is being distant and standoffish; ugh, my girlfriend broke up with me. I’ve never had a friend speak poorly of women in general, say they “deserve” anything as a group, or anything like that.
So, again, this seems like a big case of “I can’t do anything about this, so I’m not going to worry about it.”
Guys seem to like going into a game together and fighting against overwhelming odds, working together to shoot down the enemy. Even if they “die” several times.
Maybe it would be interesting to get together and make a raid/foray into one of these manosphere forums, supporting each other’s arguments and shooting down sexist crap.
r/conservative has already disproven that experiment, no matter how much opposition, they will spin a million excuses and point out how their echo chamber is being “brigaded” by bots or whatever
You’d be banned faster than trying to say “Tiananmen” on grad
Several studies also describe the backfire effect, I.e., people getting more entrenched in their position when confronted with opposing arguments. I doubt I can ever succeed where a decade+ of education system failed.
By yourself probably not. But a battalion of opposing arguments could possibly turn the tide. These guys have already demonstrated how susceptible they are to peer pressure, after all. And they’re not all online at once, so if they’re suddenly in the minority in their usually toxic forum…
So you need a coordinated effort of thousands of people who will get continuously moderated, banned or censored. OK, I admit that it’s possible, but I think I’d rather invest my time in other ways…
You’re absolutely right, but haven’t I read that they’re learning to lie about their presence in the manophere? So if it’s, say 10% who actively think and act that way, plus 15% passively subject themselves to it without going all in, but who aren’t really judging, that’s 1/4 guys who I wouldn’t risk a relationship with, many of whom are actively hiding their positions. I can see why it wouldn’t be worth it to date any man. Especially for someone with her experiences.
And my IRL impression is that it’s way more guys than 15% who intentionally expose themselves to it, and slightly more than 10% who fully buy into the misogyny.
I agree, and in my opinion, women and partners in general need to get better at leaving piece of shit men (or shitty partners in general). Many of them keep acting like this cause they get away with it after some small talk and a nice dinner just to be a piece of shit again next week. I’ve known girls who date men who genuinely claim that women shouldn’t be allowed to vote and all i can think is “why is this girl staying with someone who hates them?”
These women don’t leave because these men are narcissistic assholes who have destroyed their self-esteem and made them think they are worthless and won’t find anything better and can’t live on their own.
The good men aren’t there and don’t even know what’s going on. I’ve used Reddit and Lemmy but have blocked the NSFW/NSFL stuff. There is no opportunity to denounce or report because I remain deliberately blissfully ignorant.
If you happened to go in there and speak against them, you’d just be banned and have your post removed.
As a middle-aged man, I agree that there are some completely shitty men (loosely) out there. A real man should be compassionate, caring, protective when wanted, supportive when needed, and should never do the absolute scum things this poor woman experienced. This is on fathers (mostly) and mothers to teach their sons what it means to be respectful to everyone around them, not just women but men as well. Fathers need to model the behavior so their sons don’t grow up to be terrible humans. It is on parents to address online safety. It’s uncomfortable to do this but really, really needed. As far as the man sex culture, I’m not sure that is a fair statement. That would be like saying a woman sex culture. From what I’ve seen in my life, you will always be proven wrong if you stereotype anything about any perceived group of people.
From what I’ve seen in my life, you will always be proven wrong if you stereotype anything about any perceived group of people.
Not always but the exceptions (or as close to exceptions as generalizations can ever get you anyway) are usually cases where the stereotypical behavior is entangled deeply with the very definition of the group, e.g. the vast majority of kids of rich parents can’t understand the struggles of being poor.
I understand what you’re saying, what I meant was every time i got to the point where I had a preconceived idea about a group of people, I was proven that I was wrong. There are always exceptions - that is my point.
I just like that she calls out and lumps in 4chan with Reddit and Discord—because that’s really what’s it’s become now. I mean there are dicks lurking and active in any corner of the Internet but those platforms in particular are obviously mainstream enough or known to harbor all kinds… especially the kind she talks about.
Any decent man who has spent enough time in locker rooms understands that ~30% of men are shitty people and of those, somewhere around half are probably violent.
Once you have a daughter or put youraself in womens shoes, you realize how terrifying those odds are for women trying to navigate this world.
That just seems… Insane? My experience certainly doesn’t reflect this. But I never do averages based on a sample size of one.
~30% of people being shitty tracks with voting patterns
I know a lot of guys in the comments are saying they don’t see it so they don’t have the opportunity to call it out. And some of those guys are making good points! These communities probably don’t interact much with men that treat women with respect.
But I also wonder how much of that stuff happens and they don’t realize it’s harmful to women. Obviously sharing photos isn’t okay so that’s an easy one to call out.
It’s not a man’s fault that he doesn’t see it, necessarily. You don’t have the same experiences as women and it just doesn’t occur to you as often. Women are on alert 24/7.
Kinda like that thing about the number of guys who feel safe walking to their car at night vs the number of women. (I know some men are anxious in that scenario too, but nearly ALL women are.)
When I was an elementary school aged kid, I was afraid to play outside at my grandmas house because a man drove by yelling cat calls. This actually happened a couple times growing up.
At 14, a random man followed me home from school.
In my college there was a flyer in the restroom about how something like 1 in 6 women will experience sexual assault or rape. But really that’s just the number reported.
Every single woman I know has experienced sexual assault or rape of some kind. (I didn’t ask my coworkers to be fair).
That’s bonkers.
But I do appreciate those of you that are trying to be better! The comments here are reassuring and give hope for the future!
In my college there was a flyer in the restroom about how something like 1 in 6 women will experience sexual assault or rape.
And that was shown to be complete horseshit arrived at by defining ‘sexual assault or rape’ in a survey more broadly than any reasonable person ever would.
It’s similar to the survey in the 80s all the ACABers cite to claim 40% of cops are domestically violent–in that survey, even if a voice was raised one time in the past six months, and it was the cop’s spouse yelling at the cop, that survey dumped the relationship in the domestic violence bucket. Big surprise that 40% figure has never been replicated since, lol.
One example: at the end of a first date that you weren’t really feeling, the guy goes in for a kiss and you decline? Guess what, even if he ‘graciously’/completely accepts the denial and the date ends without incident, that went in the “sexual assault” bucket, regardless of whether the woman herself felt anything bad had happened.
Ever had sex while less than stone cold sober (keep in mind the entirety of the surveyed considered to arrive at this figure were college students)? Survey says you were raped. Doesn’t matter if you were just tipsy, doesn’t matter if you and your partner were equally drunk, doesn’t matter whether you think you were raped/assaulted, nope, we decided you were.
Stuff like that is the only way to get to a figure so absurd.
Woman who goes looking for shitty men found shitty men! More at 11
I feel like I’m in a different universe to most people. Only chance I get to call anyone out for anything is littering and playing music loudly in public. Honestly feels like confirmation bias, but I’m sure I’m wrong.
I mean, if you went to 4chan you could presumably call out more, but it’d be kind of like yelling into a hurricane. Toxicity is self-concentrating in really anonymous online spaces.
IRL bigots tend to hide their shit from non-target non-bigots.
Toxicity is self-concentrating in really anonymous online spaces.
The cause of and consequences of The Man-o-Sphere in a nutshell. People get drawn in by the promise of gamified easy answers to relationships (via PUA community, evangelist trad-life influencers, and other self-help gurus). But it’s a bait-and-switch, with “advice” drifting from “how to find an easy relationship” into “why women are awful and you should hate them.”
yeah people suck welcome to Earth
And in the west they seem to be getting worse. Anecdotal, but that’s what I’ve been experiencing.
ITT: incels whine about not getting laid.
i’m sure that’ll improve your chances and make women respect you. lol. losers.
EDIT: i’d also love to point out that i was single briefly about 5 years ago (pre pandemic) and had no problem getting laid. it was like it had never been easier. i think most young men are just pathetic.
You just kind of come across as a dick in a different way here.
my online persona is very much an asshole. i think most people suck and i’m not trying to make any friends. i have plenty IRL, and most of them think very highly of me.
Maybe you suck too?
You seem very humble, after all.
i have a confidence that most of you would be jealous of. but yes, maybe i do suck. there is such a thing as a happy middle ground. i strive for that and, IRL, i usually do a pretty good job of it. here though? i’m going to give most of you a hard time because you deserve it. yall need to learn to deal with adversity.
we are not living in a utopia. we probably won’t, but if you want one for the people that come after us, you need to toughen up.
If all you do is call people losers without offering the tiniest bit of constructive advice people are going to (rightly) downvote you and reply with mean comments and you won’t get any closer to your stated goals of teaching them to “overcome adversity” or whatever.
Try adding constructive advice along with the put downs, it should help
sure! let’s start:
- buy guns.
- don’t be an idiot.
- toughen up, buttercup.
I’m not excusing the behavior, nor do I do this. I am saying it’s not nearly as ubiquitous as the author tries to make it seem. She’s biased because it happened to her, and of course she would be. But, don’t look at her claims as some sort of careful study.
It’s not all men, it’s not anywhere close to a majority. “There are forums with millions of members on mainstream sites…” still doesn’t constitute a huge percentage of men. And, I’m sure only a small percentage of those are sharing original pictures. She has way overstated the problem.
Sorry bro she did a study, not one single man out of billions is calling out this creepy shit. Really it’s quite amazing, this is the first time we’ve all 100% agreed on anything.
“I went to places where people congregate for this kind of thing and was surprised there weren’t people calling it out”
Well DUH. The normal people see that shit and don’t bother to register an account on the forum to post. And if they do, the mods removed it. How is that surprising at all? There are numerous instances on Lemmy that have the same behaviour(albeit for normal hobbies). Are you really surprised that in the Conservative instances it’s not wall to wall “you guys suck”?
This is just confirmation bias. You found what you were looking for while actively searching it out.
It is horrible how some people treat others, but it is not my responsibility or prerogative to police others actions. There’s nothing wrong with being single, and not dating is a personal choice which I would never criticize, but blaming 50% of the population for the actions of a minority is the definition of bigotry.
It breaks my heart that things are becoming more hostile and hateful. I hope I live to see the pendulum swing the other way.
This seems to be a pretty narrow view point. They’re not asking you to police other actions, but rather voice your disapproval when you see it. Nobody can control the actions of others, but it is also undeniable that men are more likely to listen to other men. To see something, and sit idly by, is comparable to supporting the action. If you do not at minimum vocalize your discontent, then you are fine with it being done around you.
Your current suggestion is that a minority of men harass 50% of the population with no societal repercussions? When that 50% that’s being harassed is like “Hey, we need help from the other 49% to bring about a societal change” your first response is to call them a bigot? In order to substantially change the harassment being done, everyone needs to step up.
That is not my suggestion at all. When I can help, I do. When I can say something, I do. Still, we should not overgeneralize. Everybody is an individual and should be treated as such.
But at that point, why get caught up in the semantics of the statement? Why not just simply address the concern they are raising? They aren’t being literal, they don’t mean “every single man” and getting defensive when they aren’t talking about you won’t help.
It’s like she hasn’t ever considered that there are men that don’t even know it’s happening.
But sure, yeah - I’m totally patting wannabe rapists on the back. I won’t be reading misandry as a response to misogyny.
As I read this, she just tries to tell people, both men and women, about her experience. It’s not an uncommon experience either unfortunately. Isn’t that how men will get to ”know it’s happening”?
I know the initial reaction of feeling a bit hurt when someone makes broad statements about men, I’ve been there. But the more posts like hers I read, the more I understand the problem.
There’s 9 billion people and 80% of them are on the internet. Anything you want to imagine is happening in large numbers on the internet, and if you search hard enough you’ll find it.
Confirmation bias is indeed a problem, but that’s all this problem is. Don’t go looking for rape roleplay if you don’t want that.
Have you talked to women about their experiences? I challenge you to find a single woman that has not been sexually harassed by a man.
That’s nice and all, but given most men don’t sexually assault people it’s a little like treating all women as cheaters because you got cheated on, or all black people as thieves because you had an unfortunate encounter.
Sexism is sexism regardless of how you frame it.
The difference here is the frequency with all of these things. It’s easy to find a man that hasn’t been cheated on by a woman. It’s easy to find someone that hasn’t been robbed (by anyone, let alone by a black man or woman). I am not joking that I don’t think I could find a woman that hasn’t, at minimum, been sexually harassed by a man, if not assaulted.
You say “if you search hard enough you’ll find it” except one doesn’t have to search for this issue. It’s simply everywhere. Men sexually harassing women is literally everywhere. You are dismissing their evidence by suggesting “of course you can find that somewhere” suggesting the evidence they gave was too specific. But yet most porn sites are FILLED with problematic content and ads, each more specific than the next. So it’s not just about this specific “rape roleplay” scenario, it’s about all of the countless scenarios widespread across the internet.
Recognizing a systematic issue is not sexism. Trying to minimize its prevalence by saying “not all men” is problematic. And not something I would expect with the username of “superniceperson”
Again, if we’re going to include any single type of incident over the life of a person, and then start to discriminate on the common perpetrator, you end up with bigotry regardless of that incident Or intent.
Its not ‘not all men’ it’s ‘not even a third of men.’ more black people as a percentage of total black people have assaulted someone than the percentage of men that have sexually assaulted someone, so we should look into profiling black people for violence and work to correct the systemic issues that causes black people to be violent, right?
There’s a right way to go about solving the problems you’re discussing, and they are very real problems, but becoming a pathetic bigot is not the way to go.
Victimization does not give you the right of discrimination based on immutable characteristics, and you are objectively a bad person if you think otherwise. There aren’t any valid exceptions to this, and accepting this behavior leads to absolute pieces of shit like jk Rowling.
Your biggest problem is you are reading “not all men” as a literal. Not everything has to be taken literally. Language absolutely can work that way, and very often does. When a woman talks about the countless men that have harassed her, and she says “men disgust me” and your response to that is “not all men disgust you, right” then you have completely missed the point. She is conveying the hurt that has fell upon her by many men, and that is the part that should be addressed. Not the technicalities of who she is talking about exactly. And it is absolutely incorrect if your response to that was to call her a bigot or an objectively bad person.
Comparing the black race to sexist men is also a terrible comparison. Black people have historically been oppressed. There is countless literature on just the problems black men and women have faced in the last 50 years. The systematic issues with race are an entirely different beast, and not at all comparable to the issue with men.
Men have historically been the oppressors. There is no systematic oppression they’re battling. They are the ones with the majority of the power. They are simply continuing to abuse those they either have power over, or feel they have power over.
So again, don’t get hyperfixated on this “not all men” because even when people make a generalized statement, they are not talking about LITERALLY ALL MEN, they are talking about a problem they’ve experienced enough from one common group that they are able to widely complain about it. If you went day after day of constant cat calling, womanizing, discrimination, dick picks, mansplaining, and god knows what else women have to deal with, you might be saying things like that too. I don’t know if it’s a man thing, or if some people that take these things super literally have diagnosed or undiagnosed autism, or what ever else, but they (myself included at one point) seem to not be able to understand the fact that generalized statements aren’t talking about everyone but a common issue they have.
I get it, you want them to say “Some men” or might even be fine with them saying “most men” but that isn’t going to happen when someone is fed up with the treatment they’ve faced from men. They’re fed up with the treatment they’ve faced their entire lives, and they’re saying something about it. That is not bigotry. Period.
There are some pretty awful takes in these replies. It seems a fair number of men here at least vacation near the “manosphere”.
Yeah right now Lemmy is a niche appeal social media site with a minor technical barrier to entry, so it’s basically the ideal environment for toxic users to spawn. World is getting better as more regular-human users are driven off reddit, and there’s obviously blahaj and similar instances, but yeah it’s pretty rough here. Lots of “Anyone who’d choose the bear over me is just an idiot, I’d never completely miss the point like a bear would” types.
Misogyny and misandry, two unhappy twins; one celebrated, the other shunned. Both found their way into this thread.
That’s enough internet for today I think.
Pro tip - I’ll absolutely snitch on the guys I know that you probably shouldn’t date. Maybe you have a male friend that’s the same.
This just reminded me of the wonderful responses from these guys.
Well, that kind of supports my theory here.
It’s shitty that there’s not much you can do to actually intervene. Usually they don’t come straight out and admit they’re a misogynistic trashbag, it’s just a strong vibe.
My sister dated a sociopath. He was a master manipulator and cheated on and with every woman he wanted. This afgan muslim wad the biggest hypocrit I ever met.
He preyed on young women. Especiaally the vulnerable ones who suffered from loneliness, insecurities and/or depression. His charms did not work as well on me, because I’m not attracted to men. He did not like me and tried to ridicule me, cross my boundaries and set up my sister against me. Tried to slut shame me and implying I slept around in engineering. Trust me… no amount of axe bodyspray combats the overfilled lecturing room in summer. You could feel and taste the smell of men when entering. I have sensed every pheromone a man can produce, and none has a positive effect on me. And even if I did fuck every guy in engineering, what’s his point? He believed in polygamy. If he gets to fondle an theatre of tits, I should be able to ride every dick I want (with consent ofc).
My best friend was a guy. And the sociopathic pig would tell him misogynistic bs. About how to play multiple women at a once. My friend did not tell me anything about what the swine said. After all, bro’s before ho’s. And I was apparently the ho rather than the bro.
Anyhow. My warnings weren’t taken seriously, and 3 people I knew have had affairs with him. 2 of which were barely 19 and had a history of parental neglect and fear of abandonment.
Had my friend bothered to tell me, I may have had enough to convince my sister at least to cut ties with him. Instead, she become more and more miserable and doubtful of herself. Trying to break it off, but not being assertive enough to enforce it. Thank our crappy mother for that.
The pig also had a lawsuit against him for sexual msiconduct. He was a taxi driver and an incident had taken place where two women left his cab and hit the front of his car with a heel. Leaving a dent. Or so the story went. His brother lost his medical licience because there were too many sexual harassment claims against him in his dental practice. His family is known for misogyny. Fucker lied about his name because of it and refused to introduce her to his family. Reason he gave had to do with his muslim backround, but in reality, he was already engaged to another woman.
I hope she is okay. I doubt it though.
My sister recovered from the ordeal. Woman no. 3 cut ties with us and we don’t know what happened. We assume she did so out if shame. Which isn’t surprising because they all had an affair with the same guy. Fucking dumbass. Woman no. 2 was the most vulnerable, but is doing well now. Being disgusted with herself for how she acted.
I am no longer friends with the guy I used to hang out with almost daily. After he kept saying misogynistic bs and telling me he could rape me while I wouldn’t be able to do defend myself.
Men cannot be counted on for snitching, even if someone’s safety depends on it.
